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Thursday, September 2, 2010

My response to Nocker Geek's Mont'ka article: Redux: Concluding Arguments?

NockerGeek has recently revised his article on Mont'ka vs Kauyon, adding new arguments and moving away from the less effective ones. However, he is still off on some areas, and so this is, again, a counter-counter-point. He has stated it is his last post, so I will just toss this down and it will likely end roundabouts there, unless he pops back in or someone else wants to take up the mantle.
Instead of going paragraph to paragraph I'm going to go issue to issue:

Tethered to cover/Making our own cover:
This is a misconception; The Kroot do not need cover, as anyone shooting at them is simply wasting their bullets, and the survivability of the Kroot is not the purpose of their positioning. The first line is vulnerable to first turn, turn 1, alpha-strike, but it will be in cover turn 2 or bottom of 1, because of what I will describe below.
The second line is behind the first, meaning automatic cover. These two walls give cover to everything behind them; this is the very definition of making our own cover.
At the beginning of the Kauyou player's first turn, if shooting is expected, the Piranhas move out, blocking clear LOS to the first line of Kroot. They are now in cover. The Piranhas can gain cover via either flatout or disruption. Everything has a cover save. Crisis Suits, both lines of Kroot, Pathfinders, Broadsides. Suits can jump out. Broadsides are hitting tanks or MCs, meaning the shooting through a unit rule does not apply.
So the Kauyon MAXIMIZES cover; a large amount for you, and no self-inflicted cover on the enemy; meaning they have to tether themselves or take indirect routes... and even then Pathies can strip it away.

Mont'ka can give cover to everything via D.Pods and running away... but if they get anything within 12" you're in trouble, specifically because that thing is likely a meltagun.
Note also that the Mont'ka requires retreat from melta-carriers to stay alive; and since melta is so prevalent, that is a lot of retreating to do.

Fire Bad:
Flamers are incredibly overrated, and that says something because most of the internet hates them already. To do significant damage to my likely strung out line, you'd have to be right up next to the Kroot and spray sideways... a task that would have had you within rapidfire of my Crisis Suits the turn before turn, even with Jump Packs (unless you DS'd in rightnext my Kroot and whole army, but I encourage that idiocy against me). Then you have to deal with me shooting after, so:
1) You somehow moved a unit through rapidfire of two Fireknife units boosted with Markerlights.
2) You spend your last surviving turn flaming kroot.
3) You get rapidfired AGAIN.

Seeing as how that unit must have been rather expensive to effectively live to GET to me, or at least have been paying for a Deepstrike ability... you are at a loss even if you do flame my Kroot.
Then I throw in the tidbit of information that even with optimal positioning, strung out Kroot will only grant you 3-4 flamer hits (you need 5 to cause morale on 17-man squads)... yeah, that doesn't work.
And I KNOW someone would mention other weaponry in the squad, but honestly... how does it survive to get there? And why would anyone take a flamer oriented squad anyways? To get beatdown by mech?

Assault Worse/Assault not as bad
As to your talk about assaulters vs Kroot lines:
1) A decent general will shift the Kroot line to center near a suspected attack... or even give them no other option than to do so by surrounding them! The Kroot WANT to absorb that assault, leaving them in the open for our guns. Speaking of which...
2) We don't anchor to cover, not normally at least. If we do, your consolidate won't be enough to reach it if you are hitting the edge of the line, no way in hell.

As to Mont'ka being "not so bad" in CC... I admit that the tanks can be hardy due o the hit on 6s rule. The problem is that the squad assaulting you is now in position to perpetually assault, and thus perpetually melta, your vehicle. Also, if that melta (I assume it's there because it always is) immobilized you, your tank is now made of wafer and balloons.
Furthermore, your tanks are not as expendable as my Kroot... they contain juicy Fire Warriors, whom you praise later for their ability to score, and fun Gun Drone kill points.
My Kroot give you scorers I planned to lose, and a fistful of plasma and missiles.

Around, Over, or Through
Don't forget under! Sneaky Tyranids.
But yeah, this is really not a problem.
Jumpers: They can't jump over the wall because against jump infantry I'll puff out all my units to take up maximum space, and thus there will be no area they can legally jump into... meaning landing front of my line and assaulting Kroot like everyone else. Also, these guys can't hop in transports, meaning that I can be hitting them since turn 1.
Outflanking: Won't do crap. I'm either in the middle of the board so they have to walk through like everyone else, or I'm in the corner with a vehicle blockage plugging the wall, meaning that when they come in the fight... Kroot. Like everyone else.
Infiltrators: These guys. Here's the thing... I have Kroot. They can't get within 18" of said Kroot. The Kroot are often INFILTRATED farther forward, or at least placed far up. meaning they are basically not doing anything special.
Deep Strikers: See what I did in Jump Infantry? That. But with added fun of scattering amidst me and blowing up. Against a DS heavy army, I'll castle up in the corner or put my walls fully around myself. Against a random DS unit in there? It can't assault first turn unless you took Vanguards (good luck making your 300 point power armor unit work, bro! Got an Honour Guard?) they can't assault me that turn, meaning I just smash them. No big deal.

By the by... how does Mont'ka deal with this? My Mont'ka always had problems with those tricky Wolf Scouts with melta. Have you ever faced a Chaos Termie squad with combi-meltas deepstriking in? What about Multimelta/Meltagun Oblits? What about Logan with Relentless, splitfiring, Multi-melta LongFangs popping out of a drop pod? What about melta in drop pods in general? What about Scouting Veterans with melta hitting you first turn? Same with Deffkoptas?
Mont'ka has problems with these. Kauyon can laugh them all off with Kroot Walls.

Fire Lanes Required/Making our own Fire Lanes
So your problem with the Kauyon is that we have to make a killzone? All joking aside:
1) My entire army can shift 6" in any direction, with the Broadsides lagging around slightly. My Crisis Suits and Broadsides are just as mobile as Mont'ka Crisis Suits and Broadsides. The only units that can "outspeed" me and "make their own fire lanes" are Mont'ka's dual or triple Hammerheads... I have one as well.
2) If LOS either way is really bad, then I don't need too many Kroot for cover, do I? Meaning I can keep one back for a later assault blocking role and move one farther forward as a lure into my sights.
3) Bad LOS will even screw the Kauyon... more so, in fact, because the denser the terrain, the more LOS is blocked, the easier it is to get into effective melta range.
4) When they hit my line of Kroot, I will see them. While this not the best scenario, and bad LOS screws with Tau, I can still reliably draw them to me, assuming they aren't Guard. Mont'ka can as well, but every sacrifice is more costly.

Support Dependency/Support-Independent
Quite frankly, this is the worst argument throughout.
First off, let's look at the fallacy that Kauyon uses less guns...
A) The Kauyon has access to the cheaper, stationary units for both Railguns and Markerlights. This is true... point for point, our 'lights and Railguns are cheaper.
B) The Crisis Suits for Mont'ka nd the Crisis Suits for Kauyon are priced equally.
C) The Kauyon often spend less on Troops than the Mont'ka does. Luckily for us, NockerGeek, we see the perfect example of that in our two lists; you run two minimum Fire Warriors in cheap Devilfish (310 total). I run the minimum 6 Fire Warriors in reserve, and two 17man Kroot units (284 total).
D) Based on C, we know that the Kauyon has slightly more points to spend on Troops, and one more scoring unit than the Mont'ka in this case; though Mont'ka could add another, it would simply accentuate the difference in cost of troops.
E) Based on A and B, we know that the Kauyon player can afford more bullets than the Mont'ka player, point for point.
F) Based on D and E, one can thus conclude that Kauyon lists can easily hold more firepower, if they'd like.

Our two lists show an anomaly in this, however; your proposed 1750 (mused about here: would have more suits than me. Why is that?
The reason is because I purchased Devilfishes with the Pathfinders. This is not a detriment; one is necessary, but the other one is just useful; blocking, acting as a backup, tank-shocking to contest, etc.
If I had dropped a single Pathfinder squad and its Devilfish, I could afford a THIRD Fireknife squad, factoring in the difference between our troops as well. I could afford another Hammerhead or a Broadside squad. I could even grab a damned Skyray For now, I like the extra 'fish and redundant 'lights. But note that the Kauyon is NOT outgunned.
This is not to mention the comparative survivability of our units, specifically the slow moving Broadsides and Pathfinders the Mont'ka is so keen to leave in the dust.

As to the other assertion:
1) Pathfinders will be on the same line of fire as the units they are supporting (namely Broadsides), meaning that the lanes of fire only hurt them as much as it hurts every other Tau army in existence.
2) Pathfinders do not widen the wall, the will be very close by to the Crisis Suits and Broadsides, or will take the place (or sit directly behind) Piranhas had occupied, etc. Piranhas actually help the wall; late game, if the wall is breached, they become the next skirmishers to keep my guns alive.
3) A canny opponent should never ignore 12 Pathfinders. I'd love to spend the first through turns marking him up as he whittles through my Gun Drones with a 4+ cover save.

An Objective Too Far/Capture and Control
The idea that Kauyon is a static, unmoving mountain of firepower is a farce. The Kauyon can attack the enemy with incredibly heavy firepower, and then use the Mont'ka method of reserving Troops to the same effect; only with more enemies dead.
The Kauyon can be surprisingly mobile for its playstyle; often 1 or 2 squadrons of Piranhas, not to mention anywhere from 1-4 vehicles, the Kauyon can be a very mobile force when it wants to; and can act like a Mont'ka in terms of objective taking, making up for a lack of one or two vehicles with its ability to reduce the enemy resistance more than the Mont'ka.
Furthermore, the Kauyon has more troop choices base, despite the Kroot being used foremost to keep their guns alive. Kroot also make better late game contesters/converters (turning an enemy held objective to your own) than Devilfish, as most Troops hold anti-tank and the assault ability to kill Fire Warriors. A Devilfish's worth in such a time really comes from its tankshocking abilities and size, but not much else.
Kroot however, can assault the unit, and are not affected by meltagun fear nearly as much. A whittled down unit of Marines can still kill Fire Warriors and hold melta. A whittled down unit of Marines may not survive the remainder of your Kroot crashing into them.

In conclusion:
The Kauyon is effective, and requires a lot of planning and understanding to use to its full effect. On a personal note, I'm actually enjoying it more; the games becoming more about target priority and subtle defensive shifts than my old Mont'ka games, which I did not expect. Not having a Achilles' Heel in melta really relieves a lot of stress and makes me play more aggressively.
The Mont'ka is a fun way to play, but I feel it folds in circumstances in which your opponent has melta and knows how to cut off your movement advantage with it, which happens too often. When your opponents figure this out, your games become a inferior Kauyon; your tanks trapped in a corner and your units pummeled without enough firepower to stem the threats. Without this fear, the Kauyon can strike offensively, even move upfield.
My suggestion: Try the Kauyon and the Mont'ka, and find that which fits you best; just make sure you find a way to deal with melta en masse if you choose the latter.


Kroxitau said...

Dude I think that is a really solid arguement for mont'ka. I am a visual learner though and really started blogging because I like to post and see posts about battle reports.

My two main armies I have problems with:

Blood Angel all deep strike assault marines with Dante and the dudes that can assault the turn they deep strike if they sacrifice the ability to shoot that turn. He has priests in their to keep everyone FNP.

I have a battle report and he just popped in and i had my kroot positioned badly because he multi-charged through the unit, game over.

The other list is the Nid list that runs:
Hive Tyrant
2x3 hiveguard
2 Tervigons
some Gants
2 Tyrannofexes with rupture cannons. Don't remember what else is in it, but I have three battle reports against this I think.

I would love to see some posted battle reports against these armies hopefully you have some BA or Nid players in your area.


Gonna rematch the BA player again next week probably.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

Do you mean for the Kauyon or do you mean that NG's was good?

Batreps are slow for me.
The problem is mostly with getting games on tables that would look good in reports, which I'm rather conscious about.
I also like posting games that teach a lesson; I don't want to post me beating down my brother as he gets used to his Eldar; nor do I really like posting me getting massacred by my rival, and vice-versa.
I do like posting strategy and explanation vids though; if you want a vid for a concept tell me; I'm gonna be at home with my table this weekend so I'll see what I can do.

NockerGeek said...

Actually, I've never proposed a 1750 list, apart from a vague 'if I had more points' comment; my lists are all at the 1500-point level, because that's what we play in my group. I have played 2000 points, and I have an (unplayed) 1750 list, but I've never published it.

Also, your math is a bit off on Fire Warriors; 2 units of minimum-sized FWs in cheap 'fish would be 290 (145 each). 2 units of 17 Kroot/Hounds and one FW unit in reserve (assuming a `Fish, because why bother otherwise?) is 369 (112 + 112 + 145). Who has cheaper troops? You may have more, but you're planning on losing at least one, if not two, of yours.

NockerGeek said...

Okay, I see where you're getting the 284; you're depending on using a PF 'fish as a taxi. Still not a big fan of that, as you have to foot-slog onto the board and then pick them up (although I'm sure you'd have the 'fish ready to go in that spot). In that case, the difference is 290 to 284. I'm slightly higher than you, but not so much as to make a big difference.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

In the post "Something's Got To Give" you made a 1500 list, but remarked on certain units you would likely take in "higher points". These were:
2 Piranhas (140-160)
Pathfinders (128-197)
Railgun for Hammerhead (35)
These may not be exactly the choices you will make for 1750, but as you can see the 3 combined go over by quite a bit and so, to give benefit of the doubt in such a vague situation, I gave you all three.
Since you never actually posted a 1750 list, this was the best comparison I could make.

Your specific Troops use Multitrackers, and that boosts the price up to the 310. Most Mont'ka forces use multitrackers, wouldn't you agree?
Regardless, points-wise I'm on top, and that is with you running minimum squads of minimum troops.

It is true that I expect to lose some/all of my Kroot, but normally this is not the case. Often my first line is killed and my second line takes light damage. They are often used to move forward and contest or to fall back into cover and onto an objective.

Furthermore, your reserve tactics with your troops are necessary to keep them alive, but have a huge disadvantage; your troops do not contribute to the game. Not through virtue of firepower, presence, spatial control, or even a later threat. You place them in reserve and they do nothing.
As Fritz would put it, I am leveraging my Kroot against your nothing, giving me a battlefield advantage.j
Meanwhile, my two Devilfish play a light firesupport/drone blocking role before my troops hop in, leaving me in a much better position. My Devilfish also let me redeploy damaged Kroot units, in the same way they hold Fire Warrior squads to score.

So, while I simplified the idea down to mathematics, the point goes past it. To sum up:
My Troops require less points tobe effective, and make a presence on the board through light firepower and spatial interference.
Your Troops make no presence on the board until they have come into the game to score; meaning that during those turns, it is (nearly) my entire army against about 4/5s of yours.

NockerGeek said...

Depends on how cheap is cheap. If I'm not concerned about my 'fishes fighting, I trim off the multi-trackers, which I'm starting to do; mainly, they were there to let the gun drones fire while moving, but if I disembark them as soon as it comes on, it's a non-issue. On my tanks, of course, multi-trackers are a must.

In an actual 1750 list, I probably would not add Pathfinders; at 2000, I will, but not before then. At 1500 points, I'm already starting to hit FOC saturation, so HQ and Fast Attack are the only spots where I can add any real punch. If I added anything, it'd be more Piranhas and some Crisis Suit bodyguards. I'm also looking at swapping out the Broadsides for a Railhead again to free up around 110 points.

When it comes to Tau battle philosophy, I think you and I are just diametrically opposed. Not sure if it's a matter of environment or what, but I just find the more mobile, flexible style more enjoyable to play, whereas I find your style effective but drearily static and dull.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

So you'd lack any Markerlights and only 3 Railguns, on inaccurate platforms? And you'd gain, what, two more Bladestorms or Fireknives?
You would be gaining a large amount of Crisis Firepower, but you would lack any way for them to take out vehicles outside missile pod spam.

I think it is probably environment; your opponents must not having gotten around to massing any of the viable melta options I have posted above, otherwise you'd find that your flexibility is stuck in the corner of a board, under assault from all quarters.

NockerGeek said...

Mass melta doesn't really pop up much in our playgroup. The only person spamming Oblits is me (I'm the Chaos player in the group as well), and I only have 4 anyway. Space Wolves are running lots of missiles rather than melta with their Long Fangs; they have melta/combi-melta in their Grey Hunter squads, but they have yet to get into range with them yet. The Salamanders player has some melta on his dreads, but I can usually stay a safe distance from those. The biggest melta threat comes from deep-striking Blood Angels with inferno pistols.

Also, melta's not as useful in our group, as I'm the most mechanized player, with the Eldar player coming in second. Our bigger concerns tend to be assault-based and/or horde armies, so anti-armor tends to take a back seat.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

Well that would explain why your Mont'ka is actually working.
More competitive gaming groups tend to lean towards vehicular battles with meltaguns, as the former fields the game's tougher units and the latter deals with them.
What do the SW players play? You said there isn't much mech, which makes me think of a number of sub-optimal builds, especially if they aren't taking advantage of their cheap dual meltaguns.

NockerGeek said...

Let's see... our Space Wolves player's most recent list was something like:

3 Rune Priests, each 2 of: Jaws, Living Lightning, and Murderous Hurricane
3 Wolf Guard, each with a power sword and combi-melta
3 units of Gray Hunters, each with a Wolf Standard, Melta Gun, 1 w/Mark of the Wolfen, and a Power Sword, mounted in a Rhino
2 units of Long Fangs, each with 2 Heavy Bolters and 3 Missile Launchers

It's not the most facecrushing list, but he's also only been playing Space Wolves and 40K for a few months, so his collection is somewhat small. He's tried Logan in a drop pod with terminators, but it just never worked well for him, so he's trying something different.

As far as "competitive" gaming groups... competitive as compared to what? We're not generally tournament players, true, but I wouldn't say we compete any less when we play.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

By competitive I mean efficient, able to deal with a wide spectrum of threats, specifically the more common ones.
So when I see a listwith three units with melta, and no other way to reliably hurt AV14, I think "uncompetitive Land Raider fodder".
Not to mention the three ICs; I assume he puts a Guard and a Priest in each of his Troop units?
No wonder he can't touch your Mont'ka; Living Lightning is his best anti-tank.

NockerGeek said...

Oh, I did forget two units from his list - 2 Land Speeders w/Multi-melta and Heavy Flamers. So he's got a bit more than I originally indicated. Not that AV14 is really any threat for him; there aren't currently any Land Raiders apart from my Chaos one, and I'm not currently using it in my Slaanesh list. (The Eldar player wouldn't be impressed anyway; his brightlances tend to knock it out.)

That may change, though. We're hoping to get the Salamanders player hooked up with a Redeemer sometime, and I believe our Ultramarines player has one, but he doesn't get a chance to play often.

So really, what is and isn't a 'common' threat is completely determined by the local metagame.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

It is a common threat in most lists geared to win.
Ultramarines can field a nice Deathstar of ATs in a LR. Salamanders do well with a Redeemer. SW can use LRs very well in mobile armies. Chaos Space Marines would do well to toss Khorne Berzerkers in a Land Raider; it makes a nice way to draw fire against foot troops, Oblits, and Daemon Princes.
Bright Lances are not very good against Land raiders; it takes 9 hits to statistically take one down, on inaccurate platforms.
The only real way to kill one is melta; toss one with a decent threat into your lists and your opponents will be run under tread; then you'll see why most lists have melta.
Besides, call this a different point of view, but I refuse to play the local metagame; I try to make an army that can rip apart whatever I face.

NockerGeek said...

You're still playing a metagame, though. You're deathly afraid of melta, because you face it constantly, so you've built your army to resist it. I'm not, because fielding it would be of little use against most of the armies I deal with.

For me, the local metagame is all that matters, because those are the people I'm playing against. And more importantly, I'm taking the units I want to use and playing the lists I want to play. I'll try to make those lists as good as possible within the theme I want to pursue, but squeezing out every bit of fun and personality out of the list just to make it as point-optimized or all-comers-friendly as possible is not my first concern.

Hell, if I wanted to make my CSM list as 'competitive' as possible, I'd be running dual Nurgle Princes, tons of Plague Marines, and maxed-out Oblits. But that's not what I want to play, so I'll take the challenge of playing an all-Slaanesh list and tuning it as much as possible without losing its flavor. Same with my Tau; I don't believe the Mont'ka is a bad strategy, and I enjoy playing it, so I'll tune it and refine it and make it as effective as possible. But I don't see myself scrapping it just because it isn't as competitive/efficient/facecrushing as the 'accepted' mono-build.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

Not true.
I don't fear melta because it is used often, I fear melta because it should be used often.
This game happens more than I would like in close quarters, and to be able to take out a 100+ point tank or cripple a unit's mobility for a cheap add-on on any troop choice that works at the range is a bargain.
I realized that a long time ago, and I've tried to make Mont'ka usable, but competent players will be bringing melta in most armies and Mont'ka will be blunted.
The more competitive your group gets, the more you'll see this. Be wary of those LR player... they'll start the transformation.

NockerGeek said...

Oh, I hope it does step up the quality of opposition at the table. Of course, it'll depend on people being able to afford building onto their armies.

Like I said, there's no lack of competition at our tables. It's casual competition, with a relaxed atmosphere (as opposed to being at a tournament where anything is on the line), but that doesn't mean we aren't playing to win when we come to the table. However, it also doesn't mean we're playing purely to beat face with the most vicious lists we can possibly field.

Rathstar said...

I thing the lack of imperial guard and the games being 1500 points is what has caused mass melta not be in a given, rather than the competitiveness of NockerGeeks gaming group.

At 1500 points it's too much "eggs in one basket" to have a landraider let alone two to have a bit of redundancy. Outside landraiders only guard have multiple Av14 vehicles.

Trying to get side shots against predators with auto cannons/missile pods, or firing from the front with railguns, bright lances or lascannons deals withs most armour in this environment. Hence the lack of melta, and the better performance of Mont'ka.

NockerGreek: Tell your space wolf friend to consider dropping down to one rune priest. He could so much more for 200 pts. First upgrade the long fangs to all missile launchers and then upgrade the wolf guard power weapons to powerfists, and he still has 150 pts to get a small 4th troop choice in a rhino.


Aloh'Nan'El said...

See for me it tends to either be a fluff oriented "fun" army; which is usually able to go on par with tournament lists with a few drawbacks, or a "Try and beat this" pure challenge.
Kauyon can deal with the second.
Mont'ka can hope to match the first.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

Honestly, you could easily field a tough to kill Deathstar assault unit in 1500.
I've seen it.
You should also be able to get melta, as it should be built into your troops if you can take it (all Marines).

Rathstar said...

Yes you can, but how hard is it to stop only one key unit.

Also while short ranged melta is the best anti tank, if the main opposition armour is rhino chasis' that your long rang firepower can take out do you need melta compared with a flamer to deal with all the infantry that is being fielded.

Tournament environments envolve so much faster than a group of casual games (even if they are competitive), due to the fact that people tend to use the models they have, and only buy new units now and then.

I would think that as the space wolf player gets better he could be the start of the move towards mech (once he dropped 2 rune priests).

However if a gaming group is having good games and having fun, is there a need for one of them to drop £100+ to change their list into an ork battlewagon spam, space wolf razorback spam, eldar mech spam etc to win.

Until the gaming group uses more mech, lots of melta will not be essential, and Mont'ka will still work.

Given that I would still rather take my slightly more Kauyon style list against NockerGeeks gaming group, however I still keep two hammerheads which combined with my devilfish and crisis suits behind them can execute Mont'ka tactics.

Trying not to complicate the Mont'ka vs Kauyon debate, but maybe a hybrid is necessary between the two, eg. I only include 1 pathfinder unit rather than your two (abeit I'm playing lower points), and NockerGeek starting to include kroot giving him the option of a kroot wall.


Aloh'Nan'El said...

Kauyon sorta IS a hybrid between mech and static.
It is capable of small scale vehicular attacks and our suits can pull the same tricks.

Also, Flamers are totally not worth their points against anyone nearly competent. They can't hit enough, are mediocre, etc.. Even hordes can just spread out and plan their assaults to avoid them completely.

I'm not saying his group should change, but that the moment his group gets a player who uses a competitive list, it is adapt or die. The club will start using vehicles to keep up and move around after noticing the firepower and maneuverability they bring, and melta will be brought to handle those vehicles that love to be close up. Once those changes are made he'll end up with a shoddy Mont'ka or a steadfast in that environment.

NockerGeek said...

Adaptation is nothing I'm unfamiliar with, but Rathstar has it right - at this point level, and with what our gaming group can bring to the table, melta isn't as big of a threat. It's there - the Salamanders, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Eldar players all bring it to some extent or other, as do I with my Piranhas - but to run a bunch of it now would be to react to a threat that currently doesn't exist. Doesn't mean it won't exist in the future, and if/when the time comes, I'll shift as necessary. If Stormravens come out next Jan/Feb as rumored, I'd expect our BA player to get at least one, if not two, and then we'll have flying immune-to-melta dreadnought-carrying vehicles to worry about.

Eventually, we'll be running larger games. The Ork/'Nids player can easily run over 2000 points of both his armies, the Eldar player has almost 4000 points to pick and choose from, and I can run 2000 points without too much trouble (although I run out of Elite/Heavy FOC slots, and I've only got 3 Piranhas to pad out my Fast Attack slots).

And yes, I'm actually contemplating throwing in a couple of units of 10 Kroot into my 1500 list, mostly to use as outflankers, but it'll give me some more flexibility. Not that I'll be maintaining a firebase to defend (probably going back to 3 Railheads), but it's an extra option.

Aloh'Nan'El said...

I would advise against triple Railhead; they don't bring enough firepower to justify their cost and mobility.
If you insist on staying with the Mont'ka, I would suggest finding some space for an SMT; you'll find the Markerlights can increase your firepower greatly, moreso than a single Railhead.
You are going to have problem with medium-heavy tanks without your Broadsides, so you're going to have to work at ignoring them/minimizing the damage they put out.
You are going to need to keep your Piranhas in your list.

You normally run them Swordfish right?
If so, trick for you; place the Piranhas in reserve, give your Commander a PosRelay. Pricey, but it allows you to call in the Piranhas one at a time, ensuring that your Fire Warriors stay in reserve. This'll be useful for avoiding enemy fire, and can be helpful for outflankers/deepstrikers.
Finally, never run 10 Kroot. Pad them out with 3 hounds or 7 hounds. It adds that extra survivability vs shooting and a 17 man can REALLY hurt Vanilla Marine and lower in CC.

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