"You don't like DoW?
Interesting.
With Templars, it is very annoying. You are a mêlée army you have to cover much of the board to beat face.
That makes Annihilation hard against someone who has no reason to close with you.
C&C is also frustrating. Joe Foe has his objective all but off the TT and you have to cover 48" to get there, unless he hasn't killed your 2 TROOPS + HQ, which can reduce the distance to 24-42" away.
This makes Seize Ground the only desirable mission for a mêlée army.
With a shooty army, DoW can be good. Very good.
If you deploy first, you push his guys back to within 6" of his edge.
You have gained 6" more than you would with Pitched battle set-up against his initial forces, and 12" more against the rest.
T1: Kroot long shoot they enemy TROOPS [providing they are foot]
The rest of your forces come on.
12" for Fish chassis. 24" for Piranhas [if warranted] 6+d6" for Infantry.
Suits 12+d6"
End of T1, his stuff is in position [12ish" on] and so is yours. Night fight done with.
You have 24+" between you and him, just like if you deployed via Pitched Battle.
As most guys rush-to-crush Tau, one less turn for them to cover the TT.
Not good or good?
If he deploys first, his initial force gets mugged by your whole army,
AND
you come on so you can be in range of his initial force with Suits and Fish chassis but also as far away from the bulk of his subsequent forces.
For example, playing against Templars:
Imagine a clump of Rhinos in the middle.
1] He brings his guys on to the left of them. So you attack his Rhino clump from the right.
The distance between you and his subsequent forces is increased.
2] He brings his guys straight behind them. You can still attack from the right [or left] and the distance [being a triangle] is larger.
or
you can deploy directly in front of the Rhino clump and his subsequent guys will have to drive around their carcasses. Also increasing the distance.
3] He brings his guys on in two parts and on either side of the Rhino clump. He is now as close as he can be to your guys with one part, but quite far away with the other part.
Beautiful! Destroy him in detail!"
If you deploy first, you push his guys back to within 6" of his edge.
You have gained 6" more than you would with Pitched battle set-up against his initial forces, and 12" more against the rest.
T1: Kroot long shoot they enemy TROOPS [providing they are foot]
The rest of your forces come on.
12" for Fish chassis. 24" for Piranhas [if warranted] 6+d6" for Infantry.
Suits 12+d6"
End of T1, his stuff is in position [12ish" on] and so is yours. Night fight done with.
You have 24+" between you and him, just like if you deployed via Pitched Battle.
As most guys rush-to-crush Tau, one less turn for them to cover the TT.
Not good or good?
If he deploys first, his initial force gets mugged by your whole army,
AND
you come on so you can be in range of his initial force with Suits and Fish chassis but also as far away from the bulk of his subsequent forces.
For example, playing against Templars:
Imagine a clump of Rhinos in the middle.
1] He brings his guys on to the left of them. So you attack his Rhino clump from the right.
The distance between you and his subsequent forces is increased.
2] He brings his guys straight behind them. You can still attack from the right [or left] and the distance [being a triangle] is larger.
or
you can deploy directly in front of the Rhino clump and his subsequent guys will have to drive around their carcasses. Also increasing the distance.
3] He brings his guys on in two parts and on either side of the Rhino clump. He is now as close as he can be to your guys with one part, but quite far away with the other part.
Beautiful! Destroy him in detail!"
Wilhelm also brought up some interesting theory on Broadsides, but I will wait to answer that until I get around to the Broadside unit analysis, if you don't mind.
Now for the response out. I'll be re-quoting throughout:
With Templars, it is very annoying. You are a mêlée army you have to cover much of the board to beat face.
That makes Annihilation hard against someone who has no reason to close with you
You note that there is one less turn for the enemy to get to us in Annihilation, meaning problems for assault oriented armies. I will concede that point, but note a necessary side of that; in objectives, there is one less turn for the Tau to weaken the enemy before they have to move on objectives. In an objective game, unfortunately placed objectives can allow assault armies to simply wait in ambush and bear the storm... Fritz's Harlequins come to mind as a perfect example of this, whilst other armies have to survive in different ways, such as reserves, going to ground, etc.
If you deploy first, you push his guys back to within 6" of his edge.
You have gained 6" more than you would with Pitched battle set-up against his initial forces, and 12" more against the rest.
You note that I should push back enemies. This is precisely right, but it comes at the cost of my forward Kroot often enough, and that is too early a death for my comfort. Still, it is how we must play.
You note that I gained area, but also note that due to a lack of ability to shoot, I also lose time. It is a fairly even trade off, but it is not a decision I get to make.
T1: Kroot long shoot they enemy TROOPS [providing they are foot]
The rest of your forces come on.
12" for Fish chassis. 24" for Piranhas [if warranted] 6+d6" for Infantry.
Suits 12+d6"
End of T1, his stuff is in position [12ish" on] and so is yours. Night fight done with.
You have 24+" between you and him, just like if you deployed via Pitched Battle.
As most guys rush-to-crush Tau, one less turn for them to cover the TT.
Not good or good?
Kroot will shoot downfield always if they stay up front... otherwise they fall back.
You are right in stating that the proposed scenario is good, but I still worry about the units that can break it. For example: I often play against Chaos Marines. A Lash Prince can bring the Kroot int assault range and, if he is lucky, lock himself in there. If this happens, I am unable to shoot the beast at my doorstep turn one, and then it can get rid of my second wall. This leaves me in an inferior Mont'ka, with a deadly beast breathing down my neck and another nearby (not to mention the Marines and Oblits on route). This is the worst case scenario, yes, but it is one that Dawn of War allows, and that I sit through many a time.
Overall, Dawn of War screws practically everyone. Shooty armies lose turns of shooting, assaulty armies lose space... I honestly think it is the worst deployment type of them all.
For example, playing against Templars:
Imagine a clump of Rhinos in the middle.
1] He brings his guys on to the left of them. So you attack his Rhino clump from the right.
The distance between you and his subsequent forces is increased.
2] He brings his guys straight behind them. You can still attack from the right [or left] and the distance [being a triangle] is larger.
or
you can deploy directly in front of the Rhino clump and his subsequent guys will have to drive around their carcasses. Also increasing the distance.
3] He brings his guys on in two parts and on either side of the Rhino clump. He is now as close as he can be to your guys with one part, but quite far away with the other part.
Beautiful! Destroy him in detail!"
Well said, and what I attempt. Many a time a Marine player attempting a cascading cover formation against me gets blockaded nearly completely by a wreckage and a Piranha. Making your opponent's footprint work against him is incredibly useful.
6 comments:
If it's a C&C game, this is what I think will happen.
Your foe is mêlée based.
Unless he has a TROOP unit he wishes to keep out back [which he could if he brings a Crusader squad with LC and a LasBack, like moi]
it is worth his while putting his Objective far forwards.
He can strike from such a place and even scurry back to it.
You place yours far far away, usually in a corner.
Your fire base is there.
With less turns for him to get there,"all" you have to do is shoot like crazy, and he shouldn't be able to get there. Not so much because of your shooting, but a lack of time.
Your counterattack is actually the really nerve wracking part.
You must get your fire support right to give the counterattack unit[s] a chance.
You might not have to use your piranhas to move-block. With clever movement and Dpods, if they are alive near the end turn, you can zoom them to contest the objective.
If you place your Objective in the bottom left of the TT, and his is in the middle, hopefully he will deploy his subsequent forces opposite your Objective. Good!
His guys advance at your firebase and Objective and with a few casualties, will never make it there. Yours held.
Meanwhile, his is lightly held. How many mêlée players do you know that do not attempt to go for the throat? I cannot see him not using his subsequent forces to attack you, instead of merely reinforcing his Objective.
"Oh fun, I'll camp here and wait the game out whilst getting shot by those Tau!!" lol
By T3/4, his attacking forces are past being alongside his Objective.
You can see whether or not you can start diverting fire to clearing his Objective.
Be subtle.
You don't have to eradicate his Objective holders. Do that and he'll wheel his attacking forces around to hold his Objective and you'll get a boring draw. Boo!
Just gently turn up the firepower. All you need to do is make sure that your contesters can get there. They cannot capture the objective, unless you are doing so with TROOPS. That means his guys don't have to die, just be 'small enough' for your contesters to get within 3"
:D
LASH issues.
Range 24" and move your unit 2d6"
His assault range is 12" or 18" with wings.
He deploys first.
He moves 12" lashes 7" assault 6"
You MUST deploy 25+" away from the Prince.
Even if your Kroot are not in a great postion.
If he deploys in the middle and you still want to be deployed far in, deploy on the flanks, or use Infiltrate and deploy in his half of the TT. The Prince will have to go backwards to get cover by being in combat. Good!
When you do Infiltrate the Kroot, don't do it inline with your [or any] Objectives as it will be a sling shot for his subsequent forces, what with assault and consolidate moves.
+++
You deploy first:
He sets up and is 18" away. You then move+run 6+d6" away, which will hopefully put you out of his range. He might even have to go through cover even if he does assault the Kroot.
+++
Not great but it's something.
In your T1, if you have deployed first, your Kroot are at the halfway line.
If it looks like they will get mauled, lose the position and move 6+d6" away from it.
The job was to hinder his initial deployment.
Don't think like the humans, land is for the killing, not for the taking!
Retreat!
His initial forces will be 25" away, and so cannot kill any Kroot with small-arms fire.
His subsequent forces will be moving and so usually will only get one shot per vehicle.
Assuming he makes his NF rolls.
A question on LASH.
Does it suffer from NF rolling?
You've definitely improved my few of DOW, but I still see Lash as a huge problem. It completely controls how I deploy, and with a little luck it can disrupt my whole army with very little problem.
In Annihilation for DoW set-up, besides T1 [which is much like the deployment phase]
you shoot to full effect from T2 onwards.
One less turn for him to rush-to-crush you, which is what most armies try to do against Tau.
Even if your cram-and-jam fails and your shooting doesn't work, that is 2 less assault phases you have to endure.
He might not actually be able to kill you quick enough.
With Templars, I have run out of time to beat down effectively.
Even if it all falls apart, less turns can keep you competitive and you might even win on KP, even though if the game kept going you'd get mopped up :D
Shooty armies+Annihilation+DoW = good!
I still think you underestimate reserve, contest, score for armies that can't make it across, but you are mostly right.
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